There is a controversy swirling around a message entitled "When Did Christ Learn The Mystery" This message came to my attention when people from Grace Bible Fellowship of Xenia returned home from bible conferences held by Pastor Richard Jordan, and wanted everyone to know that Jesus not only did not know the mystery in the four gospels, Christ didn’t even have the attributes of God in the four gospels. Since that time, literally dozens of people have inquired about this controversial teaching.

The subject is identified by pastor jordan as "almost a dangerous subject" in the very first minute, indicating the Pastor Jordan knew it would be controversial and could be (almost) dangerous. It should come as no surprise then, that some might conclude that the subject is dangerous, particularly to young believers and especially to those leaning toward Open View Theology.

The question posed is "When did Jesus Christ learn the secret? When did He learn about the mystery?" My answer would be that He learned it before the foundation of the world, and while the speaker agrees with that the Pastor Richard Jordan teaches Christ chose to forget what He knew and did not find out about the mystery until Acts 7.

If Christ did not know the mystery, is the Pastor Jordan saying the ‘son’ is different from the ‘Christ?’ Note that the speaker never says ‘Christ’ was back there....he says the Son was back there.

Proverbs 8.10,22, 3.19 ‘God’s wise plan was before the foundation’, and I would agree. I would say Christ was back there and He learned the mystery then. Christ was at the council table when the plan was initiated and His part in it set forth.

‘Frankly, and I know it is considered heresy in some places’ is another quote which makes it clear the Pastor Jordan understands he is in controversial territory and that disagreement can be expected.

Pastor Jordan says "Here’s when it gets thick" (I would say, here is where we run amuck).

Philippians 2.5-8 Pastor Richard Jordan says "There is no question about the deity of Christ, here this morning." and that is good news, because some of the things about to be said are troublesome when it comes to the deity of Christ...."Jesus Christ, voluntarily, and of His own free will, laid aside the free and independent exercise of all of His attributes as God. He is God, you cannot change his attributes as God, you cannot change His essence and His being. But He made Himself, He took upon Himself, He made a choice to lay aside the independent exercise of all of His deity attributes." With these statements, I cannot agree. It was not a mere man who died for my sins, it was not a mere man performing miracles for Israel and it was not a mere man who was the Lamb slain. It was the attributes of God by which He knew men’s thoughts, by which he performed signs and wonders and by which He could die for my sins. Without the attributes of God, you have a Christ unworthy of the cross.

Then Pastor Jordan sounds like a seminary professor when he talks about the doctrine of the ‘kenosis’ (and why are we using this liberal terminology and promoting Kenotic Theology?).

Then Pastor Jordan says "and you will see translations that say ‘He emptied Himself,’" which in this presentation are apparently translations preferred by the speaker over the King James Bible so as to improve upon what the King James Bible states. Listen to this section again as the speaker clearly prefers a translation other than the KJ.

Next we are taught that He cannot give up His deity, but he willingly lays it aside....the independent exercise of His deity. Please, then, do not say that this message does not deal with the deity of Christ when it clearly does. We have, from Richard Jordan, Christ without any attributes of deity in the four gospels. This I refer to as ‘near-heresy’ choosing to give the Pastor Jordan the benefit of the doubt.

Next Pastor Jordan deals with the status of being a servant and again it is said "When the Lord Jesus Christ laid aside the free and independent exercise of His deity attributes in order to be made into the fashion as a man and be found as a servant," we have ourselves a Christ without the attributes of deity. Respectfully, I must strongly disagree. And if you take Richard Jordan’s position, don’t you dare ever teach the deity of Christ from any of the four gospels ever again.

Mark 13.32 John 15.15
While Pastor Jordan uses these verses to conclude that Christ is ignorant and knoweth not, would we then similarly conclude that God did not know where Adam was when God said ‘Adam, where art thou?" Rather than teaching that Christ chose not to be God, I would say this is anthrophormistic in nature.

"He made the choice not to live on what He knew...laid that aside." but Christ, when asked in Mark 14.61 "Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?" finds a Christ who knew who he was in verse 62 And Jesus said, I am." The Lord seems to disagree with Pastor Jordan.

Luke 22.70-71 bears the same witness and when Christ said in John 8:58 "Before Abraham was, I am." does not Christ there declare that he is operating with the attributes and knowledge of God? And please tell me, what profit is there in lessening the personage of the Lord Jesus Christ? How does the message of an ignorant Christ encourage people to trust Christ?

And if he laid aside all the attributes of God, as our speaker suggests, are we not intellectually dishonest to demonstrate the deity of Christ in the four gospels? And if we cannot demonstrate the deity of Christ in the four gospels, where would we then go to demonstrate his deity?

Then, Pastor Richard Jordan says "In church history, there have been all kinds of heresies, the Nestorians....etc.etc" again suggesting that the speaker understands he is in tenuous territory, near heresy.

"Fleshing himself in your limitations..."

"He didn’t quit being God, he just wasn’t gonna exercise those deity attributes on his own, He was gonna put Himself in complete total dependence on the other members of the Godhead."

"He didn’t live in His identity as the one with all the creative attributes of the universe. He lived in perfect humanity." Are we to conclude from this that we are saved by a man? And would it not also follow that if we are good little boys and girls we can be just as much a Christ as He was, since both of us lack all the attributes of deity?

And did not Christ reveal through many of His parables that there would be a delay before the kingdom would come? Did not Christ teach the mysteries of the kingdom? And where in the old testament did He read that information? And how did an ignorant Christ know to close the book in the middle of a sentence in Luke 4.20.

Matthew 11.25 all things delivered unto me of my father....(Again, does ‘all’ mean ‘all’ or not?)

Then Pastor Jordan says "Jesus Christ was educated by His father" and refers to the speaker’s Luke study....

Pastor Jordan then says "Come over to Chapter 3 of Luke, verse 21......and a voice came from heaven which said Thou art my beloved son, in thee I am well pleased. You can read over that and miss that....in Luke, looking at Him and who He is, in Luke the Father isn’t addressing the crowds, He’s addressing His son and He says ‘Thou Art’......God the Father is educating the Lord Jesus Christ....."

But in Luke two at twelve years old Christ already knew that He was going about His Father’s business and so the idea that Christ found out He was the son in Luke three is just plain wrong, almost silly. Perhaps Pastor Jordan thinks that when Christ said He was going about his father’s business in Luke Chapter two, Christ meant Joseph and that Christ was taking carpentry lessons.

"Total dependence upon what the father teaches him" is another statement then made by our teacher which sets a foundation for a question the speaker is about to pose, and please do not miss Pastor Richard Jordan's question:

"Can you grasp some of that in your mind without becoming a heretic?"

If that is a legitimate question, and I believe it is, then this is a teaching inappropriate at best and dangerous at worst.

And after all this, all that Pastor Jordan has established is an ignorant Christ lacking deity....we have yet to be told when Christ learned the mystery....the title of the message. You will learn it happened in Acts 7, flippantly, almost as an ‘oooops’....almost as an afterthought.

"Pastor Richard Jordan, Grace School of the Bible, Shorewood Bible Church, Chicago Illinois teaches:
Jesus knew the mystery in eternity past and he chose not to know it in order to become a man.....He (Christ) had a time of limited understanding and limited knowledge because the Father had only revealed certain things to Him and He walks in dependence upon what the Father’s revealed." So Hebrews 13.8 does not apply to the earthly ministry of Christ; Christ is not the Author and Finisher and we should relax and accept this teaching? When we relax, intellectually, we become lazy and easily led, dear friend.

Then Pastor Jordan takes Hebrews 5 and makes it that an ignorant Christ had to learn obedience rather than that God manifest in the flesh took the position of having to experience obedience to the shame of the cross

"He’s declared to be His son, My Son, because he has all the information now."....(Not only does the speaker put words in God’s mouth here, the speaker then denies what God supposedly said by teaching that Christ stays ignorant to this very day, and did not learn about the mystery until Acts 7)

"If I was getting that across to you, you couldn’t be looking at me that blank." is not what you want to say at the conclusion of a message, I can assure you. Listen to this again....apparently the speaker’s audience was dumbfounded by this message. Perhaps if you turn up your tape player you can hear chins hitting the floor.

Because He has depended upon the education that the Father gave him......Pastor Jordan draws to a conclusion with this statement...."He is living in total dependence today, even now, in what God the Father communicated to Him." This statement, in my opinion, makes Christ into a lesser God. And if Christ is now in the same dependent condition as described by the speaker relating to Christ’s earthly ministry when Christ lacked the attributes of God, is the speaker now presenting a Christ who still lacks the attributes of God? At this point, this message has become even more dangerous.

No wonder Pastor Jordan uses forms of the word ‘heresy’ three times in this message and no one should be surprised that this message would be unacceptable to some who hear it. If I am understanding what is being said here, and I hope I am not, Christ still does not know all there is to know, even now.

And since Christ is living in total dependence, does this leave room for more surprises? Remember, Pastor Jordan said....He (Christ) had a time of limited understanding and limited knowledge because the Father had only revealed certain things to Him and He walks in dependence upon what the Father’s revealed." and here the speaker has apparently extended the time of ignorance and dependency through this present hour. If this is not an open door to Open View, whatever would be? This is a message worthy of total rejection. This teaching has the potential of tarring the Grace Movement with a label of heresy that could well stick.

Ep 1.17 knowledge of him, his calling etc. v20 which he wrought in Christ when he raised him

Should you visit us here, be certain to leave yourself time to visit the...

More than 800,000 square feet under roof...

State of the art...

or simply artful...

Below you see Carol with the famous Camel...

And here is the Stealth bomber...

We had not been to the Air Force Museum in ten years and were amazed at the improvements...

And with gas so expensive it was nice to see so much so close to home.

One day soon I will be in heavenly places... without the suit...

You couldn't get either Carol or me to fly in one of these puppies...

We would feel comfortable in something slightly larger...

We are thankful to those brave Americans who served in the U.S. Air Force to protect our freedoms and liberties.

Below you see memories of our tiptoe through the tulips at the Holland Michigan
Tulip Festival

Everywhere we went we found this small town was ready for visitors with a level of efficiency and professionalism for which the industrious Dutch are famous.



This windmill shown below was manufactured in the Netherlands and shipped to Holland where it continues to grind grain into flour.

Sis. Carol and I were able to give away quite a few books on this trip and we hope they got read, for the Dutch Reform church is all about "living it" and not about Christ and Him crucified.

We stayed on the campus of Hope College in the center of Holland, Michigan. 
We found the campus to be very nice, well kept and the kids to be quite rude.

The Haworth Hotel and Convention Center is on the Hope College campus and is an exceptionally nice place to stay, although paking is a problem... there pretty much isn't any.
This trip also served as a stark reminder that religion is the enemy of God's grace, and the Dutch Reform Church in America is very religious, politically correct, and twice plucked out by the roots.


The statement of faith of the Dutch Reform Church in America (RCA) states that it is sacramental, creedal, yet constantly reforming.  In one statement they claim salvation is by God's grace and then from the other side of their mouth they said this, which we quote verbatim: Baptism signifies and seals God's covenant of grace with us and our children--demonstrating that we are saved for eternity through his love."  How sad.


 

Cutting Edge Issues...
New Series: NOW WHAT?
Knowing it's the end of the world as we've known it... now what?

It is the end of the world as you've known it.

It is the end of the world as you've known it...2

It is the end of the world as you've known it - 3

NOW WHAT? Fight the good fight Part One

NOW WHAT? Fight the good fight- Part 2 

Fight the good fight-  Part 3 of 3

BE NOT ASHAMED... 

"BE NOT ASHAMED" is an issue Paul raises with Timothy and we do well to consider it.  PART ONE

"BE NOT ASHAMED" is a doctrinal issue as well as a personal and must be dealt with   PART TWO

"BE NOT ASHAMED"  PART THREE: generally speaking people are ashamed about the wrong things and not ashamed about the right things

"BE NOT ASHAMED" Conclusion: we are wrong to allow our New Man to be made ineffectual by the Old Man and we are wrong to allow our New Man to accept shameful behavior, most especially wrong doctrine.

PROBLEMS WITH PROPHECY DISCERNED

PROBLEMS WITH PROPHECY  In this introductory lesson we identify who so much prophetic teaching is off the mark, even among dispensationalists who should know better.

PROBLEMS WITH PROPHECY pt 2  In this lesson we identify how confusion is engendered by application of Israel's prophetic verses to us today.

PROBLEMS WITH PROPHECY pt 3  In this lesson we identify the verses commonly conflated with disastrous results

PROBLEMS WITH PROPHECY pt 4  In this lesson we tie loose ends together and see the common problem

PROBLEMS WITH PROPHECY pt 5  In this lesson we consider what only Pauline people consider

PROBLEMS WITH PROPHECY pt 6
Conclusion noting why problems with prophecy occur 
02-10-2013

Doing the devil's work...at church.
Below is a series of messages dealing with how churches today not only fail to preach the saving gospel of God's grace, but these messages also demonstrate why that happens.

Gospel Issues #1: Understanding the agenda

Gospel Issues #2: Seeing how error begets error

Gospel Issues #3: Understanding what motivates the leaders who use the baptistery as leverage

Gospel Issues #4: Bringing it all together

Gospel Issues #5: The common denominator 

Gospel Issues #6: The pulpit as psycho-babble

Gospel Issues #7: The pulpit as boss over drones

Gospel Issues #8: What is too often forgotten

Gospel Issues #9: Confidence in what we know

Gospel Issues #9: Using the law lawfully November 18, 2012

Gospel Issues #10: Conclusion, including 5 marks of poor presentations of the gospel of God's grace

Look at the letters and emails from listeners: 
we call them our paychecks.
Broadcast these programs in your area by making arrangements with your local station and having me provide your station with this programming OR simply take the mp3 files from this site to your station.  You will see results.

What I don't believe. In the grand scheme of things, what I believe matters very little to anyone except me, but I thought it might be both interesting and enlightening:

Why I don't believe physical intervention

Why I don't believe what you believe... about prayer

Why I don't believe in "New Testament Christianity/Christians"

Why I don't believe the "Original Manuscripts" or the 'Original languages"

Why I don't believe in "Intelligent Design"

Why I don't believe in "Race" much less Racial Prophecy"

To you who support Richard Jordan:

Let’s clear the air once and for all.

     Hear what Pastor C. Richard Jordan has to say about Christ giving up all His deity attributes.
     Hear Terence D. McLean answer that Christ did not surrender all His deity in the gospels and hear the answer to such verses as Mark 13:32.
    Hear Pastor C. Richard Jordan teach what he believes about racial prophecy.
   Hear Terence D. McLean refute what he believes to be ignorant racist dogma.
    Anytime, Anywhere
    We propose an all day meeting, with enough notice that everyone who wants to can attend. We willpay for the expenses of the meeting at a site Pastor Jordan is welcome to select (within reason), and at a time mutually agreeable. Our only stipulations are that nothing be done in secret, so secret meetings behind closed doors (as Alex Kurz suggested), but out in the open with cameras and tape recorders running.
    We will provide audio tapes and transcripts of Pastor Jordan’s heretical message entitled "When Did Christ Learn The Mystery?" Finally, we will also provide the audio tapes of the Grace School of the Bible classes taught by Pastor Jordan in which Jordan teaches racism and bible doctrine.
    Do not allow Pastor Jordan to hide behind a King James Bible which he clearly does not believe. Do not allow Pastor Jordan to get away with obfuscating his liberal agenda. Do not allow Pastor Jordan to get away with introducing heresy into the grace movement.
   Let’s get this out in the open once and for all so that Pastor Jordan can get back to his shopping at the mall. Let’s get this settled so the grace movement can discard Pastor Jordan into the scrap heap of liberal heresy and return to fidelity to the King James Bible.
     Have Pastor Jordan contact us:. We have called him several times and he never returns our calls.   Have Pastor Jordan drop me a note at Box 87, Alpha Oh, 45301. We sent four letters to him which he failed to answer.
    Thank you.
Romans 16:17-18 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.


hear it for yourself!
When Did Christ Learn the Mystery? by PASTOR C. RICHARD JORDAN
Don't blindly follow what people have told you:  study for yourself.
Here is the hurtful heresy introduced into the grace movement
by Pastor C. Richard Jordan of the Shorewood Bible Church
and the Grace School of the Bible.

When Did Christ Learn the Mystery #1

When Did Christ Learn the Mystery #2

When Did Christ Learn the Mystery #3

When Did Christ Learn The Mystery #4

Did Jesus really have none of the
attributes of God in the gospels?
Did Christ not know who he was
until he was 30 years old?
Does Christ not know all things, even now?
Is Jesus Christ inferior, a lesser God, subservient forever?
Were Jesus miracles not of His own doing?
If Christ is not fully God and fully man,
how can he die for us?
did Christ lay aside the free and independent exercise of all His attributes as deity?

Audio Studies...
over 100 free Cutting Edge messages
for your edification

Don't waste time with fools on Facebook, MySpace, Twitter, Social Networking...

 

Thanks Pastor:  I'll take your advice.  I have been on YouTube with Grace believers there the past 3.5 years and three weeks ago I separated from them and I closed my YouTube accounts.  I have been going nowhere for so long, and its time to do it right.

Amen and Amen.  I too have cut the cord from FaceBook seeing what a waste of time it was... especially when so called "gracers" are Jordanites constantly displaying their degredation of my savior's deity

Pastor McLean, thank you for telling it like it really is!  About 6 years ago I learned the lessons you outlined the hard way.

DECK THE HALLS
WITH BOUGHS OF FOLLY

 

The Spirit world, Halloween, and why it matters

THE SPIRIT WORLD: cherubim's, seraphim's, angels, devils, and the Halloween lie... part one

 

THE SPIRIT WORLD: cherubim's, seraphim's, angels, devils, and the Halloween lie... part two

 

THE SPIRIT WORLD: cherubim's, seraphim's, angels, devils, and the Halloween lie...Why it matters and how Satan uses it..... part #3

 

THE SPIRIT WORLD: the DEVIL'S DENOMINATION and its tentacles toward you... part #4

 

King James Bible believing
mid-Acts-Pauline Dispensational Bible Studies

What is God doing? Why 2 programs?
 Why Israel? 
Why the mystery?
 What is the devil's plan? How do we fit in?

 

What is God doing? Part two...

 

What is God doing? Part three...

 

What is God doing? Part four...

 

What is God doing?  Part five...

 

What is God doing?  Part six...

 

What is God doing? Part seven...

 

What is God doing? Part eight
including verses with more than one dispensation (but ours hidden)...and, the Bible's most beautiful buts...!

 

What is God doing?  Part nine...

 

What is God doing?  Part ten of ten...

 

Tithing, Income Tax, Grace Giving And You

Should Christians Tithe?

Marriage, Divorce, Remarriage

Four Steps From Truth To Error

Rightly Dividing The Hebrew Epistles

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Verses (almost) Nobody Preaches    Rightly - Part 1

Verses (almost) Nobody Preaches Rightly - Part 2

Verses (almost) Nobody Preaches Rightly - Part 3

Verses (almost) Nobody Preaches Rightly - Part 4

Verses (almost) Nobody Preaches Rightly - Part 5

Verses (almost) Nobody Preaches Rightly - Part 6

Verses (almost) Nobody Preaches Rightly - Part 7

Verses (almost) Nobody Preaches Rightly - Part 8

Verses (almost) Nobody Preaches Rightly - Part 9

BORN AGAIN is not about us:  we have better than "born again."

Paul's Pattern For Leadership - Part 1

Paul's Pattern For Leadership - Part 2

Paul's Pattern For Leadership - Part 3

What Should The Church Be Teaching? - Part 1

What Should The Church Be Teaching? - Part 2

What Should The Church Be Teaching? - Part 3

What Should The Church Be Teaching? - Part 4

Christian Leadership - Lesson 1

Christian Leadership - Lesson 2

Christian Leadership - Lesson 3

Christian Leadership - Lesson 4

Edification Of The Saints - Part 1

Edification Of The Saints - Part 2

Edification Of The Saints - Part 3

Answering Another Ruckman Attack - Part 1 

Answering Another Ruckman Attack - Part 2 

Answering Another Ruckman Attack - Part 3 

The Basics - Part 1

Don't Minimize What God Says To Magnify

Peter vs Paul

The Pastor / Teacher

When Did Paul Write What He Wrote, And Why Does It Matter?

Growing Pains

But It's Worth It

Things Godly Ladies Should Do

The Critical Nature Of Right Division

The Critical Nature Of Evangelism

Grace Makes Us Believers Rather Than Beggars

The Critical Nature Of Being Critical

Critical Nature Of Following Paul

Grace Changes Everything 

Death Of The Pope 

Pressing On Towards The Mark 

What Good Is The Cross? 

Building With Paul 

Grace And Your Spouse 

Great Chapters (Judges 9) 

Great Chapters (Leviticus 26) 

Great Chapters (Judges 5) 

Great Chapters (Deuteronomy 32) 

Why Do We Meet As We Do?

How The Body Of Christ Is To Grow

Why We Are Followers Of Paul And Not Peter

Prophecy Vs. Mystery

Repent of all your sins to get saved?

Healing, Signs & Miracles

Questions To Ask

Lord's Prayer

Pressing On

Jesus Christ is a Dispensationalist (Paltalk)

Effective Bible Study - 1 (Paltalk)

Effective Bible Study - 2 (Paltalk)

Effective Bible Study - 3 (Paltalk)

Effective Bible Study - 4 (Paltalk)

Effective Bible Study - 5 (Paltalk)

Effective Bible Study - 6 (Paltalk)

Effective Bible Study - 7 (Paltalk)

Effective Bible Study - 8 (Paltalk)

Effective Bible Study - 9 (Paltalk)

Effective Bible Study - 10 (Paltalk)

The Most Important Thing A Christian Can Learn - 1

The Most Important Thing A Christian Can Learn - 2

The Most Important Thing A Christian Can Learn - 3

The Most Important Thing A Christian Can Learn - 4

The Most Important Thing A Christian Can Learn - 5

Dealing With Disagreement #1 (Paltalk)

Dealing With Disagreement #2 (Paltalk)

Dealing With Disagreement #3 (Paltalk)

How To Teach Mid-Acts Dispensationalism - Part 1 (Paltalk)

How To Teach Mid-Acts Dispensationalism - Part 2 (Paltalk)

How To Teach Mid-Acts Dispensationalism - Part 3 (Paltalk)

How To Teach Mid-Acts Dispensationalism - Part 4 (Paltalk)

How To Teach Mid-Acts Dispensationalism - Part 5 (Paltalk)

How To Teach Mid-Acts Dispensationalism - Part 6 (Paltalk)

How To Teach Mid-Acts Dispensationalism - Part 7 (Paltalk)

How To Teach Mid-Acts Dispensationalism - Part 8 (Paltalk)

How To Teach Mid-Acts Dispensationalism - Part 9 (Paltalk)

How To Teach Mid-Acts Dispensationalism - Part 10 (Paltalk)

How To Teach Mid-Acts Dispensationalism - Part 11 (Paltalk)

How To Teach Mid-Acts Dispensationalism - Part 12 (Paltalk)

Dispensational Thinking Through The Centuries - Part I of III

Dispensational Thinking Through The Centuries - Part II of III

Dispensational Thinking Through The Centuries - Part III of III

How To Perform The Ministry Of Reconciliation: Introduction

How To Perform The Ministry Of Reconciliation: The Self Righteous

How To Perform The Ministry Of Reconciliation: The Hopeless

How To Perform The Ministry Of Reconciliation: The Skeptics, Agnostics, Atheists

How To Perform The Ministry Of Reconciliation: People Who Choose Hell

How To Perform The Ministry Of Reconciliation: Roman Catholics

How To Perform The Ministry Of Reconciliation: Unsaved Church Members

Right Relationships

God's Purposes In The Body Of Christ - Part I

God's Purposes In The Body Of Christ - Part II of II

Why Was Christ Baptized? - Part I

Why Was Christ Baptized? - Part II

Our Purpose In God's Purpose

Seeing A Bigger Picture...Preach The Cross

When You Hold Fast Don't Be Surprised When You Are Misunderstood

Paul As The Last Word: Paul's Last Words

Never Lose Sight Of Why We Are Here

Genesis Chapter 6 Q&A

Defend The Doctrine

Why Did Paul Go To Synagogues When His Ministry Was To Gentiles?

Update On "When Did Christ Learn The Mystery?" Controversy

Romans 16:17

Godly Ladies... More Than Moms

Body Building Exercise part one

Body Building Exercise part two

Suffering Persecution

Pretty Good Gospel Message

The Simplicity Of Christ (Brother Linus Iheukwu)

Baptism Is Not Our Issue

Grace At The Cross

Is There Really A Gap? Or Just A Gap Theory?

Misunderstood Verses: Peter Vs Paul In Galatians 2:9

Where The Assembly Fits In

The Importance Of Integrity

Identifying What Really Happened

Rightly Dividing The Lord's Earthly Ministry

The Revelation Of The Mystery

Some older messages are in Real Audio format. 
If you do not have Real Audio
click here to down   load real audio (it's free)  The PDF files open with your adobe program.

New Bible Versions Are A Dispensational Mine Field

What The Seminary Won't Teach You About The Bible Version Issue

The Last Eleven Verses Of Mark

Seven Men Who Said 'I Have Sinned'

Hard Hearted

Are We To Operate Under The Circumstances?

Benny Hinn's Bologna

Where Are Daniel's Missing Days?

Doing A Grace Diagnostic

Who Will Magnify Paul's Office?

The Bride Of Christ

Did Jesus Preach The Mystery During His Earthly Ministry?

As If Hell Were Not Bad Enough

The History Of The Transmission Of The Bible Texts (There Are Two) Prove The King James Bible To Be God's Word 

Dr. Ruckman Gives The 'Dry Cleaners' His Best Shot, And Misses By A Country Mile

What It Means To Be A Bible Believer
Part 1 (Introduction)

What It Means To Be A Bible Believer
Part 2 (The Bible We Believe)

What It Means To Be A Bible Believer
Part 3 (What We Believe)

What It Means To Be A Bible Believer
Part 4 (Why We Believe The Way We Do)

Calvinism's Wrong Teachings About Election

Calvinism's Wrong Teachings About Predestination

Calvinism's Wrong Teachings About Sovereignty

Right Division (Mid Acts Dispensationalism Affects Everything You Believe)

The Erroneous Teachings of The Baptist Bride Church

Did Paul Break His Promise To Peter?

The Gospel Of The Kingdom Is A One Way Ticket To Hell In The Dispensation Of Grace

The Ministry Paul Performed

Counterfeit Bibles, Contaminated Speakers, Confused Doctrines, Carnal Entertainment = Church Services?

 

Why do men compromise?

Sis. Carol says we live what we believe

The Prince and the Pauper
and the Deity of Christ.
     It was in 1881 that Mark Twain wrote the classic story of The Prince And The Pauper; and it was in 1881 that Westcott and Hort published the corrupt English Revised Version of the Bible.  In Twain’s story, an unwanted and impoverished child, the Pauper of the story, trades places with the soon-to-be king, the Prince of the story.
          In the Westcott-Hort translation, He who thought it not robbery to be equal with God in the King James Bible, forsakes His own deity by “emptying” Himself.”
The King James Bible does not teach an “emptied out” Christ, but rather that our Lord took the position of a pauper, similar to the Prince in Twain’s tale.
         While new translations based upon the Westcott-Hort 1881 revision undermine the deity of Christ in Philippians 2:6-8 as you see here in the New American Standard:
“Who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, talking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.”...you cannot teach a lesser or “emptied out” Jesus from your King James Bible:
          “But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.”
Twain’s Prince humbled himself to be a pauper; and, in so doing, the Prince learned of the horrible conditions of the poor. At the same time, the Pauper fared sumptuously, having taken the position of the Prince.
          As you read Mark Twain’s endearing story, part of the charm is that you never forget that the Pauper has taken the position of the Prince, but that the Pauper is not the Prince. Likewise, you read of the Prince, humbled, having taken the position of the Pauper; yet you know that he is the Prince and can exercise his position as Prince whenever he would so choose.
          The teaching that Christ “emptied himself” and “laid aside the free and independent exercise of all of His attributes as God” is known as Kenotic Theology: liberal at best, and heretical at worst.
          When a leading Mid-Acts Bible teacher puts words in our Lord’s mouth (thus violating the express prohibition about adding to God’s word) and (mis)quotes our Lord as saying “I won’t use my power, my ability as God,” we have a serious situation.
Blasphemy? Perhaps. Bad teaching? Unquestionably. A wrong direction for the grace movement? Most certainly.
          Shortly before America’s story-teller wrote The Prince And The Pauper, Gottfried Thomasious (1802-1875), a German rationalist and Lutheran Theologian, was teaching the error of an “emptied out” Jesus. The Westcott-Hort translation would be in agreement with this liberal error of an “emptied out” Christ, wrongly translating the Greek word “kenosis” as “emptied” in opposition to the King James’ correct translation, which is that Christ “humbled” himself.
          Were Twain’s Prince to have amnesia, not knowing that he was the Prince, and were he to live out his life as the Pauper, you would have something equivalent to what the grace movement is being asked (by it’s leadership) to believe about the Lord Jesus Christ. Then, after the Prince dies, never having his memory restored, his amnesia continues even into the afterlife, requiring input from Mark Twain.
          Similarly, some notable Mid-Acts grace teachers would have you believe that Christ, to use their words, “had a time of limited understanding and limited knowledge.” These leaders of the Mid-Acts grace movement would have you believe that Jesus Christ lacks omniscience to this very day and still depends upon updates from the Father.
          Obviously, it would be in the Pauper’s best interest to keep the Prince ignorant of who he really was. In like manner, it is not surprising to find liberal Bible expositors who would exalt themselves at the expense of their Saviour; but it is very sad to find such selfish arrogance in the grace camp.
          We are now seeing grace believers scurrying about, searching out the verses about Jesus Christ which the cults use to undermine His deity, in an attempt to rob Him of the attributes of God. Not surprisingly, those same grace believers put themselves into 1 Tim. 3:16 in the place of Christ: “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.” It is common that those who denigrate Christ, exalt themselves. (Romans 1:25 “Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever.”)
          Well, what of those verses dredged up by Mid-Acts grace believers (as well as Jehovah Witnesses, Unitarians, Liberals and suchlike) to attack the deity of Jesus Christ? If there were not verses that could be twisted to teach Christ as a lesser god (or not God at all) we would not have the problems with cults that we do. For grace believers to be using those same verses in the same manner as the cults, to lessen the person of our Saviour Jesus Christ, used to be unthinkable but is now commonplace.
          Are we willing to say Christ has none of the attributes of God because He asks questions? (Matthew 20:21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? Mark 10:51 What wilt thou that I should do unto thee? Luke 8:45 Who touched me?)
Are we willing to say Christ has none of the attributes of God because he takes on human attributes? (Matthew 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? Mark 6:38 How many loaves have ye? go and see. Luke 7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking;)
          When some leading Mid-Acts grace teachers put forth that “He (Christ) made a choice, to lay aside the independent exercise of all of His deity attributes”, do we search the scriptures to see if that is true, or, do we say “Amen” because to question what some people teach is not allowed and will result in being shunned and smeared by the Grace Gestapo?
Imagine that a leader in the supposed King James-believing grace movement would have the Lord Jesus say things that Christ never said, and then that same teacher would base his subsequent wrong teachings on statements blasphemously jammed into our Lord’s mouth. What then?
          Here are the exact words that a leading Mid-Acts grace teacher attributes to Jesus Christ: “And He said, ‘I wont use my power, my ability as God.’” And so, wrong teachings about the deity of Christ based upon lies about what Christ said, and accepting those lies has becoming a test of fellowship. That is more than sad: that is dangerous.
          Of course, Christ never said any such thing. No real King James believer would teach by treating the Lord as a ventriloquist’s dummy, putting words in His mouth. But there are King James pretenders who think nothing of it. These words are blasphemously put into the mouth of the Lord by certain Mid-Acts teachers who pretend to be King James believers, desperate to teach the “emptied out” Jesus of Westcott-Hort, desperate to scratch itching ears, desperate to show the Athenians some new thing.
          Because the “emptied out” Jesus, who did not even know He was the Son of God until age 30 when the Father told Him, has been taught openly and exported around our movement, open rebuttal should be expected, as Romans 16:17 demands. (Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.)
          Meanwhile, the personal attacks and cover-up that have followed are not pretty.
          “Jesus Is Jehovah” teaching tapes are offered as a smoke screen; but the question was never “Is Jesus Jehovah?” but rather “When did Christ learn about the mystery?” Paul provides the answer by describing Christ as (Col. 2:9) ...”all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” And the Godhead that includes Christ put the mystery in place before the foundation of the world, as any Mid-Acts dispensationalist knows.
          Because of the coverup, the question becomes a bit more complicated as now we must see past the smoke and mirrors. We must work our way past the circled wagons, and see the simple truth for what it is.
Instead of Grace Believers rallying around 2 Tim. 2:15 (Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.), now the test of fellowship is Mark 13:32 (But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.)
          Obviously, in Mark 13:32 Jesus is speaking as a man, or so the verse says. Jesus is speaking as the Son, or so the verse says. Jesus is speaking as the Pauper, not as the Prince; but unlike Twain’s fictional characters, Jesus is both Prince and Pauper simultaneously.
          This understanding of the verse is made clear two verses later in Mark 13:34: “For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.”  (By the way, has anyone noticed Mark 13:32 has nothing to do with when Christ learned the revelation of the mystery? Trotting out this verse to defend a message about Christ not knowing the revelation of the mystery, then, must be seen for what it is: a frontal attack on the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ).
          In this particular context. At other times we see His attributes as God clearly portrayed as in the ten examples which follow:
1. There is only one God: Isaiah 43:10, 44:8, 45:21.
Jesus is God: Isaiah 9:6, Matthew 1:23, John 1:1, 14, 20:28.
2. Only God is to be worshiped: Exodus 20:2-6, 34:14, Matthew 4:10.
Jesus is worshiped: Matthew 2:2, 11, 14:33, 15:25, Luke 24:52, John 5:23.
3. Only God is to be glorified Isaiah 12:8, 18:11, Jeremiah 13:15, Matthew 5:16.
Jesus is given glory: John 1:1-14, 17:5.
4. God is the creator: Genesis 1:1, Psalms 8:1-3, 102:24-25, Isaiah 44:21.
Jesus is the creator: John 1:3, 14.
5. God is the only Saviour: Isaiah 43:3, 11, 45:21, Luke 1:46-17, Titus 3:3-4 Jude 25.
Jesus is Saviour: Luke 2:11.
6. Only God can forgive sins: Isaiah 1:18, 43:25.
Jesus forgives sins: Matthew 9:2-6, Mark 2:5-7.
7. God shed His blood: Acts 20:28.
Jesus shed God’s blood: Revelation 1:5.
8. God was pierced: Zechariah 12:4, 10.
Jesus was pierced: John 19:37.
9. God was tempted by Israel: Exodus 17:2.
Jesus was tempted by Israel: I Corinthians 10:9.
10. God raised Christ from the dead: Galatians 1:1.
The Holy Spirit raised Christ from the dead: Romans 8:11.
Christ raised Himself from the dead: John 2:19, 10:17-18.
          How dare a Mid-Acts teacher who masquerades himself as a King James man say that Christ “laid aside all his attributes as God.”? (Does such a man instruct his Sunday School teachers to tell the little children in his church that they must tell the kids that Jesus had none of the attributes of God in the gospels?)
          To sacrifice Christ’s deity on the altar of His humanity would always be a wrong thing; but to do so because of a desire to be as the Athenians, (“either to tell, or to hear some new thing”) is both desperate and irresponsible. Now, rather than going about (Eph. 3:9)”to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery”, those in leadership would have us choosing up sides over the deity of Christ.
          Just as the Prince took the position of Pauper, Christ lived as a man in submission to God the Father and at the exact same time (Col. 1:19) “... it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell”; (Luke 10:22) “All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.” Christ never was devoid of His attributes of God, just as Twain’s Prince never ceased to be the Prince.
          If Christ knew only what God the Father told him, as some grace teachers say, how did Christ (Matthew 13:35) “utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world...?”
          In 1881, Westcott and Hort knew exactly what they were doing when they attacked the deity of Christ by teaching an “emptied out” Christ. Even if we give today’s Mid-Acts dispensational deity-attackers the benefit of the doubt, their harmful effect is the same. If Christ laid aside all the attributes of deity in His earthly ministry, then what verses do we have to teach Christ’s deity to Atheists or Jehovah Witnesses?
          On one side of the hypostatic union, Christ is (Colossians 2:9) “the fullness of the godhead bodily”, and on the other side Christ is (Luke 7:8) “a man set under authority.”
We see (Luke 7:34) “The Son of man is come eating and drinking;” and 14 verses later Christ does what only God can do (Luke 7:48) “And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.”
          As the Pauper, you might say that Christ learned about living as impoverished humanity (Luke 2:52) “And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man” and (Hebrews 5:8) “Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;” but Christ’s attributes as God should not be questioned.
          As the Prince, Christ was reading scripture: (Luke 4:18-19) “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.”
          Christ knew where to close the book (Luke 4:20-21) “And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.”
          We all know the reason Christ did not finish the reading in Isaiah. The reason He closed the book on a comma in Isaiah 61 is because Jesus already knew the revelation of the mystery. Christ had known the revelation of the mystery from before the foundation of the world; and so He knew that Luke 4 would not be the time for the fulfillment of the rest of the verse in Isaiah 61: “and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;”
          Had Christ not known the revelation of the mystery, there would have been no reason for Him to interrupt His reading of the prophetic program.
          Mark Twain told a story of a Prince and a Pauper who exchanged places. The Bible presents Christ as both Prince and Pauper, simultaneously, fully God while fully man. Mark Twain never did accept Jesus Christ as who He is, fully God and fully man; and now there are grace teachers who would lead us into the error of Westcott and Hort’s liberal infidelity, teaching an “emptied out” Jesus to the grace movement.
          It is both incredible and terribly wrong to teach that Jesus Christ did not know he was the Son of God until the Father told Him from heaven (Luke 3:22) when a voice came from heaven, which said, “Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.” Christ already knew He was the Son of God (Luke 2:49) “wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?”
          Please allow me to be the first to forgive those who have taught us wrongly, yet let us all continue to require repudiation of this harmful doctrine.
Please allow me to be the first to forgive those who made this personal, yet let us all continue to believe the deity of Christ (Hebrews 13:8) “the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever,” and let us clearly reject an “emptied out” Jesus.
          Please allow me to be the first to tell you that this is a rift that could easily be remedied if the teachers involved would simply recant. Are they so prideful that they require we treat them as if they were infallible? Are they above scrutiny?
We must return to the King James Bible, God’s perfectly preserved word.
          We must not allow our leaders to base teachings upon Wescott-Hort Greek error.
          We must renounce the teaching that Christ set aside all his deity attributes.
(We must also reject the racist dogma taught about Shem, Ham and Japeth.)
        We must get back on track, that souls would be saved and saints edified, that all men would see what is the fellowship of the mystery, and that Christ would be glorified rather than denigrated.
          Mark Twain wrote fiction; we traffic in eternal truth.
          The Prince and the Pauper is just a story; the deity of Christ is the central doctrine of our faith.
          We must not value 'getting along' more than we value Christ’s deity. The King James Mid-Acts Dispensational Movement will not survive if its leadership teaches either racist dogma or a Christ without the attributes of God and it is currently teaching both. Do you care enough to call for a halt?

LISTENING WITH DISCERNMENT

How to listen with discernment (using a Sword of the Lord sermon as an example of terrible preaching)

 

(using 20+ Bible commentaries to show us how little help they offer)

 

Using Baptist bride literature to see their gross error October

 

Using Presbyterian lessons on money

 

Using John MacArthur's book

 

Using Lewis' book on Faith Promise

 

Using John R. Rice's book on Prayer

 

Using Roman Catholic Catechism

 

Using Kenneth Hagin's book on receiving the Holy Spirit

 

Using Pat Robertson's book Secret Kingdom

 

Using Ryrie's Book chapter on ultra-dispensationalism

 

Heresy, Heretics:

FRIENDS OF ISRAEL, Genesis 12:3 error versus reality
June 02, 2013

PAT ROBERTSON (author, 700 Club, etc), his comments on biblical creation demonstrating the foolishness of trusting science rather than God's words.

Hear how the "Sword of the Lord" Baptists make a mess

Sword of the Lord article & bad Baptist teachings

The Aeropagus Journal mentioned me and my BMAD book as an example of everything they disagree with all melded together... and I couldn't be any more pleased to be an example of King James literalist, Bible-believing mid-Acts Pauline ultra-hyper-whatever dispensational.  What a hoot!

 

The Berean Searchlight's amazing ignorance and the foolishness of the Searchlight Editor

 

LESSONS IN
LEADERSHIP

LESSONS IN LEADERSHIP #1 Establishing the Pauline pattern II Thessalonians 3:1-9

 

LESSONS IN LEADERSHIP #2 Applying the Pauline pattern
II Thessalonians 3:9-13

 

LESSONS IN LEADERSHIP #3 Discerning The Issues
II Corinthians 11

 

LESSONS IN LEADERSHIP #4 Paul's stern warnings
Colossians 2

 

LESSONS IN LEADERSHIP #5 Let us teach what Paul points us toward
Colossians 2

 

Let no man despise thy youth: TAKE OVER

 

 

Manning the Front Lines              

 

Manning the Front Lines part two       

 

Understanding what you are up against. 

 

1Thes 2:13 
For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us,
ye received it
not as the word of men, but as it is in truth,
the word of God, which effectually worketh
also in you that believe.

Problems in the Grace Movement that need to be C-C-C-C-CURED

 


The Kentucky Horse Park in Lexington is always enjoyable to visit, and we were there for the annual Kentucky Dressage Association Grand Prix ***



The Friesian horse is one of the most handsome of all God's creatures and below you see the statue of Secretariat.



Calumet Farms

Sis. Carol took this which she believes to be the best horse picture she has ever taken when we toured horse farms.

Before and after feeding a stallion, count your fingers.



Get'em up, Scout.



Henry Clay may have been the greatest American in the time between Jefferson and Lincoln, and he is the man who taught abolition to Lincoln.. at the Lexington Cemetery, Sis. Carol weeds his marker.

On Clays sarcophagus is his testimony:

"I can with unshaken confidence appeal to the divine arbiter for the truth of the declaration that I have been influenced by no impure purpose, no personal motive -- have sought no personal aggrandizement, but that in all my public acts I have had a sole and single eye, and a warm devoted heart, directed and dedicated to what in my best judgement, I believe to be the true interests of my country."

...I'd vote for a guy like that, wouldn't you?


OUR VISIT TO
NORTH CAROLINA
WAS OUTSTANDING...


Sister Carol is shown here in my favorite picture of her, at the Sandburg home, shown below.



Sandburg, a man of letters, Vanderbilt, a man of money, doubtful that either would change places with the other, doubtful that either knew Christ as Saviour.


We began our trip to Western North Carolina at America's largest home, the Biltmore House in Asheville North Carolina.  One cannot help but wonder what a believer might have done with the money the Vanderbilt family spent of itself and this 250 room mansion on 8000 acres.

Black-eyed Susans and the Calico flower were just a small part of what we enjoyed seeing at the Biltmore Gardens and we also visited the University of North Carolina Arboretum


Apparently Sis. Carol and these flowers don't like each other as you see them sticking their tongues out at each other below.

An amazing thing happened when we returned to Mayberry RFD:  we had gone back in time to when everything was black and white....

And speaking of Black & White, here is Sheriff Andy and Barney's...

While in Mayberry (Mt. Airy) we stopped by Floyd the Barber, but he couldn't do anything for me...


We experienced a great deal of fog:


The gardens were gorgeous...

but we most enjoyed Sandburg's home and reading what he thought about his own writing:

By the way, it is not the camera that takes great pictures, it is Carol that takes great pictures.

 

OUR RECENT TRIP TO
HOLLAND MICHIGAN,
cited as one of America's ten best towns.


With more than 6.5 million tulips in bloom, the Tulip Festival has been cited as America's best small town festival by Reader's Digest.  The wonder of God's creation was a joy to behold.

 
Here you see Sis. Carol in downtown Holland



 


 
It is doubtful the folks in Holland Michigan are anywhere close to how many tulips are really growing in their town.
 
Between Holland and Saugatuck, on a neighborhood lot, we found this wonderful sign, which no doubt aggravates the Dutch Reform neighbors.  Outstanding!!

We made a side trip to Saugatuck Michigan and found the 365 step stairway to climb Mount Baldhead.  It was fun to find this spot as I had not been here since I had become a baldhead myself.